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Irish Red and White Setter success in Field Trials in Canada
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Congratulations to Deborah McNay (Machias) from Snohomish, Washington State, on her results in the Fools Gold Amateur Walking Trials in Canada , spring 2006.
IRWS were placed 1st and 3rd in the Puppy Stake, 2nd and 4th in the Derby
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IRISH RED AND WHITE SETTER CLUB LETTER TO THE BREED STANDARDS COMMITTEE CANADA.
To: Mr Elio Furlan,
For Att. Of: The Breed Standards Committee.
Dear Sir,
I am writing to you in my position as President of the Irish Red & White Setter Club, with regard to the proposed changes to the IRWSCC Standard. Whilst the club has been aware that the IRWSCC has proposed changes to the IRWSCC Standard, despite numerous requests, it was unable to get a copy of the proposed changes until recently.
We are writing to you as the club of the country of origin to give our opinion in regards to these proposed changes and also to raise some grave concerns regarding some of the proposed changes.
General Appearance
Strong and powerful – we would point out that the word powerful has been removed from the Irish Standard since 2005 for the following reasons:
The Club decided to remove the word ‘powerful’ from the general appearance. Although this word was mentioned in the points for an Irish Red & White Setter set up by the Society in 1944 it was in the context that the back quarters should be very muscular and powerful’. In the Interim Standard of 1979 in the section entitles general appearance it described the dog ‘a dog of great strength and power athletic rather than racy’ This was the first introduction of the word ‘power’ into the general appearance. In the finalisation of the Breed Standard in 1984, the word power was changed to powerful this has led to confusion on the general appearance of the dog. It was never meant to be in the context of the overall dog and as such it was felt that the inclusion of the word ‘powerful’ in the description of the general appearance has led the development of a much heavier dog than envisaged by the Breed Society of 1944 and by the present Club and as a member of the committee who drew up the finalised Breed Standard, I have no difficulty in admitting we were wrong in inserting the word powerful into the general appearance.
Coat and Colour
In regards to feathering the Irish Red & White Setter Club Breed Standard states: a reasonable amount on the flank, extending on to the chest and throat forming a fringe.
The proposed change states: a reasonable amount on the flank, extending on to the chest forming a fringe. The stated rationale for this is that the fringe on the neck is usually removed. To the Irish Red & White Setter Club this sounds like a grooming issue for Show presentation which is not a valid reason for changing a Breed Standard.
There is also a proposal to remove the wording; roaning, flecking and mottling on any other part of the body is most objectionable and is to be heavily penalized.
Proposed change: roaning, flecking, and mottling that is not excessive, is permissible, but not desirable.
I would point out that the wording in regards to this matter in the Irish Red & White Setter Club Standard has been changed since 2005. It now states: Base colour white with solid patches (clear islands of red colour), both colours should show a maximum of life and bloom; flecking but not roaning permitted around the face and feet and up the foreleg as far as the elbow and up the hindleg as far as the hock. Roaning, flecking and mottling on any other part of the body is objectionable.
The Irish Red & White Setter Club feels that the use of the word ‘objectionable’ clarifies
The Breed Standard’s position on Coat and Colour rather than the words ‘that is not excessive, is permissible, but not desirable’. There is also a statement within the document that the parti-colour gene produces ticking. Perhaps the IRWSCC could produce the scientific evidence on which they base this statement on, as it has been our experience here in Ireland that you can breed IRWS without roaning and flecking by selective breeding.
Hindquarters
There is a proposal in regards to feet, to remove the wording ‘with plenty of feathering within the toes’. Rationale for this change: The feathering between the toes is usually removed for tidiness and cleanliness. Once more it would seem that the reason for this proposal has again to do with presentation at Shows. The IRWS is a working dog. The reason for the feathering between the toes is to protect the pads and feet of the dog from the type of terrain it would encounter whilst working. The Irish Red & White Setter Club cannot endorse or condone changes to the Breed Standard which are based on current presentation fashions, for the Show ring. We have read a statement made by Pat Ua Siaghail in 2007 which stated ‘Please remember that our breed is owned by humans and those humans like to win in the show ring’. It is the opinion of the Irish Red & White Setter Club that this is not a credible reason to seek changes in the IRWS Breed Standard.
Gait
The Irish Red& White Setter Club is seriously concerned at the proposed changes to the IRWS gait. The Breed Standard states ‘Seen from front or rear forelegs and hind legs below the hock joint moving perpendicularly to the ground’.
Proposed change: When moving at a trot, the dog will have a tendency to converge towards a line representing the centre of gravity of the dog.
Rationale: This more accurately reflects the correct movement at the trot.
The IRWS is a hunting dog which runs at a fast gallop. This fact is not taken into account by the above proposals in regards to ‘gait’.
Single tracking is something that North American breeders and show judges believe in. I don’t think it features in any UK/European breed standards for setters.
From observation of working and field trial IRWS, I have yet to see one that single tracks, and single tracking is not functional for working setters.
As a working setter gather speed, it is true that the front legs tend to converge, but not the back legs. At a fast gallop, the back legs pass the front legs, and if the dogs single tracked, the back feet would hit the front legs. With the back legs slightly apart, the dog has a more powerful drive from the hindquarters and better acceleration from a standing start. If the back legs tend to converge, the drive from the hindquarters is less powerful.
In hindsight, if the Irish Red & White Setter Club had been informed of the proposed changes to the breed standard by the President of the IRWSCC, Pat Ua Siaghail, when she attended the International Breed Conference here in Ireland in 2006 we could have gone forward with proposals which would be acceptable to the IRWSCC and the Irish Red & White Setter Club, the Breed Club of the country of origin.
I would point out that the Irish Red & White Club Breed Standard is not only the Standard of the country of origin but also the FCI Breed Standard.
I would request your Breeds Standard Committee to take into consideration the points raised in this letter when discussing the proposed changes to the breed standard.
Best Regards,
Terry O’Leary.
PRESIDENT
IRISH RED AND WHITE SETTER CLUB
PROPOSED CHANGES TO THE IRWSCC STANDARD
The following information is the list of changes which have been
presented to the Standards Committee of the Canadian Kennel Club for
its assessment. After the CKC reviews the recommended changes, the
IRWSCC Canadian membership will vote to accept (or reject) these
changes to the Canadian Standard of the Irish Red and White Setter. Only underlined sections have been changed.
General Appearance
Strong and powerful, well balanced and proportioned without lumber;
athletic rather than racy.
Change: well balanced and proportioned; without lumber;
Rationale: The semi-colons separate the concepts.
Coat and Colour
Hair: long, silky, fine hair called "feathering" on the back of the fore and hind legs and on the outer ear flap, also a reasonable...
Change: also a reasonable amount...
Rationale: A semi-colon is required here, rather than a comma, to indicate
a second concept indicated by the word "also". ..
...amount on the flank extending on to the chest and throat forming a fringe.
Change: ...amount on the flank, extending on to the chest, forming a
fringe.
Rationale: The coat on the neck is much less than on the flank and chest,
and thus should not be included in this description. Also, the fringe on the
neck is usually removed.
All feathering straight, flat and not over profuse. The tail should be well
feathered. On the head, front of legs and other parts of the body the hair
should be short, flat and free from curl but slight wave is permissible.
Base colour white with solid red patches (clear islands of red colour), both
colours
Change: (clear islands of red colour); both colours...
Rationale: The semi-colon separates the ideas.
should show the maximum of life and bloom; flecking but not roaning
permitted around the face and feet and up the foreleg as far as the elbow
and up the hind leg as far as the hock: roaning. flecking and mottling on
any other part of the body is most objectionable and is to be heavily
penalized.
Change: roaning, flecking, and mottling that is not excessive, is
permissible, but not desirable.
Rationale: As it stands now, clarity of the white colour has been made the
most important part of the dog. The IR&WS, like many other breeds, is
parti-colour. The parti-colour gene produces ticking. This may have a
variable age of onset and degree of expression. For instance, a young
dog may be mostly clear-coated, yet months, or even years later, mayshow red hairs among the white. Ticked dogs can produce clear progeny, and clear dogs can product ticked progeny. The expression of roaning, flecking, and mottling, its degree of expression and its time of onset is not known genetically ,and therefore is difficult to choose for. Also, as the standard now reads, even one red hair in the white is to be "heavily penalized".
Judging this breed should not have to include searching for red hairs among the white. It makes no sense to put such an emphasis on colour, especially given the instructions in "Origin and Purpose" encouraging judges to "judge the dogs from the working standpoint"—the real priority for the breed. No other CKC standard of a parti-coloured breed discriminates against "roaning, flecking and mottling"to such an extent. Finally, no reason has ever been given by the country of origin, or elsewhere, for such a stringent requirement. On the other hand, the breed is called "Irish Red And White Setter" so a dog that is so heavily flecked as to appear red and roaned, would not be desirable for the breed.
Head
Broad in proportion to the body.
Change: Broad; in proportion to the body.
Rationale: Inserting a semi-colon after "Broad" allows for a balanced
dog—broad head, and body in proportion to the head.
Skull: domed without showing occipital protruberance, as in the Irish Red
Setter.
Stop: good stop.
Muzzle: clean and square.
Jaws: of equal or
nearly equal length.
Teeth: regular; scissors bite ideal; level bite
acceptable.
Eyes: dark hazel or dark brown; round, with slight prominence
and without haw.
Ears: Set level with the eyes, and well back, lying close
to the head.
Hindquarters
Wide and powerful; hind legs from hip to hock long and muscular, from
hock to heel of moderate length and strong. Stifle well bent. Hock well let
down, turning neither in nor out. Feet close knit.with plenty of feathering
between the toes.
Change: Remove the sentence.
Rationale: The feathering between the toes is usually removed for tidiness
and cleanliness..
Gait
When moving at the trot long striding, very lively, graceful and efficient.
Head held high, hindquarters drive smoothly and with great power.
Forelegs reach well ahead and remain low. Seen from front or rear
forelegs and hind legs below the hock joint moving perpendicularly to the
ground: no crossing or weaving of legs, front or back.
Change: When moving at a trot, the dog will have a tendency to
converge towards a line representing the centre of gravity of the
dog.
Rationale: This more accurately reflects the correct movement at the trot.