Thank you for your invitation to present an account of my Club’s part in the revival of the Irish Red and White Setter breed on the occasion of your 25^th Anniversary. I hope you have a successful conference.

A special meeting of the Management Committee of the Irish Red Setter Club (IRSC) was held in Aird’s Hotel, Portlaoise in August 1974.

The purpose of the meeting was to discuss a letter from the Irish Kennel Club (IKC) regarding the possible revival of the Irish Red and White Setter breed.(IR/WS) The letter requested that our Club would partake in an outcross breeding programme, using Irish Red Setters and suitable Irish Red and White Setters.

After an in depth discussion and bearing in mind the fact that we were specifically the IRSC, the meeting agreed that we would take part in the revival programme. However, it was proposed that after receiving further information from the IKC, a special general meeting would be held to discuss the IKC proposals. The honorary secretary, the late Jack Nash, was asked to contact the IKC and to request the following information:

The Special General Meeting was held in Killeshin Hotel, Portlaoise in October 1974. There was a very large attendance.

After the honorary secretary had read the correspondence from the IKC regarding the participation of our club in the outcross programme, a full and informed discussion took place. Almost all of those present took part.

At the end of the discussion a motion was passed agreeing to assist in the revival of the Irish Red and White Setter. However, mindful of their duty to maintain and protect the purity of the Irish Red Setter, and this cannot be over emphasised, the members attached the following conditions to their agreement:

The chosen panel of judges was the following:

Mr. J.Nash, Mr. T.Wall, Miss P.Kelly, Mrs A.Cuddy, Mrs L.Dunne, Rev.Dr.P.Mulligan, and Dr.B.Deeny.

Of the red dogs used in the outcross programme, many, if not most, were of Jack Nash’s Moanruad line. A lot of Moanruad litters had dogs with white marking on them. Some had a large white blaze, white breast and white on their paws. The mating of Ballymac Eagle and Patricia of Killone in 1969 produced Moanruad.Kerrygold and Moanruad Keen Girlie. I acquired a puppy from that litter called Moanruad Kinsman. He was all red except for a tiny white streak on top of his head. To the best of my memory, there was no other puppy in the litter as red as Kinsman. Moanruad Kerrygold was used in the outcross programme as well as his son, Moanruad Brendan. A son of Moanruad Keen Girlie, Glenkeen Sandy, was also used. Other dogs taking part in the programme included Moanruad Stardust, Moanruad Jerry. Rev. Canon O’Doherty had red dogs that were used also. They included Tony 1, Bran 2 and Shot 2.

I have been told that Bishop Mulligan’s dog, Bracken, who had no obvious trace of white in his pedigree, was used, in order to spread the gene pool as it were!

In response to a letter from the IKC, asking our committee to draft a standard for the Red and White Setter, a meeting was held in the Killeshin Hotel in February 1978. A very full and comprehensive discussion took place on the subject and all those present participated.

The Standard drawn up was as shown overleaf.

The meeting also agreed to request the IKC to continue to insist that all applications for registration as Red and White Setters must be passed by two of the Inspection panel, regardless of whether the parents were registered or not.

There was also concern about what should be the proper procedure when whole coloured puppies and miss-marked red puppies appeared in a litter. It was decided to have a meeting with the registered breeders of red and whites to discuss the matter. An opinion was also expressed that if our Club’s sponsoring of the red and white breed was becoming detrimental to the reds, we should discontinue our involvement in the rebuilding of the red and white setter as an independent breed.

In May 1978 some of our committee met some of the breeders of red and whites. Mr. Tom Kennedy took the Chair. Also present were hon. sec. J.Nash, P.J.Keenan, R.P.Stakelum, Ms. J.Adams, Mrs.E.Davidson and Mrs.K.Bride. Those representing the Irish Red and White breeders were Mr. and Mrs. Gormley, Mrs.M.Cuddy, T.O’Leary D.Mooney. Apologies were received from Fr. P.O’Doherty of Ballybunnion.

The proposed Standard for the IR/WS, drafted at the February meeting, was read out by the hon. sec.

Mrs. Cuddy complimented the committee on the standard drawn up and said she agreed with all parts. The chairman stated his satisfaction with Mrs. Cuddy’s remarks, coming as they were from a very experienced breeder of red and white dogs and who had contact with pre-war breeders.

The problem of whole coloured progeny in red and white litters, especially where a red outcross had been used, came up for discussion. Mr. Stakelum said that in his opinion, a viable Red and White Breed would take longer than a few years to come about. He said that ruthless culling and sacrifices would be necessary for the protection and fostering of both breeds. He believed that whole coloured and miss-marked progeny should be put down.

Mr. Mooney remarked that in his experience, when a Red dog was outcrossed with a Red and White, the first generation were usually what we might call miss-marked Reds with an outside possibility of a true Red and White. It was in the next generation with the resultant progeny crossed back to a Red and White, that we get the true Red and White as well as miss-marked Reds and even an all white puppy.

Mr. Nash then put it to the meeting that puppies being put forward for registration should be inspected by two of the panel of judges. He also said that, in a first generation, if a true Red and White came all others should be put down. It was unanimously agreed that when Red and Whites were bred, all miss-marked Reds and Red and Whites should be destroyed and a veterinary surgeon’s certificate supplied to that effect before the papers were signed by two of the panel of judges.

A meeting of the Club’s committee in November 1978 was informed that the General Purposes Committee had requested amendments in two parts of the Red and White Standard, i.e. colour and mouth. The meeting agreed to amend the parts as follows:

Colour. "The dog must be particoloured, i.e. base colour should be white with solid red patches. Flecking but not roaning permitted around the face and feet, and up the foreleg as far as the elbow and up the hindleg as far as the hock".

Mouth. "The jaws should be of equal or nearly equal length and the bite should be a scissors bite".

Those present were informed that the IKC wanted to add two named persons to the panel of inspection judges and that it was not in favour of putting down miss-marked puppies. Some members were not pleased about this and said that our Club should discontinue its involvement. Mr. Nash pointed out that such action could cause a rift between the IKC and us and that was not desirable. He suggested that we meet the IKC to discuss the matter. This was agreed.

During the A.G.M. in November 1979 the honorary secretary told the meeting that an article from the IKC in the November issue of "Irish Dogs" was ambiguous and misleading. He said that he would contact the IKC to correct it.

Some people present said that it was their understanding that our club had agreed to meet Red and White breeders to finalise the Standard and matters relating to it. The honorary secretary said that since the Irish Kennel Club had adopted a leading role in the final discussions on the subject, and had agreed to publish the Standard it would be inappropriate of our club to upstage it.

The problem was not resolved by March 1980. A meeting in Portlaoise of the IRSC committee heard Ms. J.Adams say that, due to the article in "Irish Dogs" it was possible that some dogs in litters from a pure red and a red and white outcross could be registered as Irish Red Setters. Mr. Nash (hon. sec.), said that he had written to the secretary of the IKC refuting the article and requesting its retraction.

The members requested Mr. Nash to contact the IKC and ask it to publicly retract the statement in "Irish Dogs" relating to the "resultant kids" in IRS and IR/WS cross bred litters, and that it display same on IKC notice board. He was also asked to enquire about what reciprocal arrangements the IKC had with the Kennel Club in London relating to Red and Whites.

At the AGM in June 1980, under Any Other Business, a member referred to what he regarded as conflicting guidelines for the registration of red pups in litters from Red Setter-Red and White Setter cross breeding.

The honorary secretary said that right from the start of the programme in 1974 it was agreed that under no circumstances should Red offspring from such matings be registered as Red Setters, or used in the breeding of same. This had been also been unanimously agreed at a meeting between the IRSC and Red and White breeders in May 1978.

Mr.Nash promised to get in touch with the secretary of the IKC about an apparent misunderstanding here, but the IRSC remained firm in its objection to such puppies being registered as Irish Red Setters.

A committee meeting in April 1982 in Killeshin Hotel was told that the IKC requested a progress report on the outcross programme with a view to re-allocating Green Stars for the breed.

The opinion of the members was that the Breed had made good progress and that some of those being shown were up to standard. However, there was still too much divergence of type in a breed with such a narrow base.

Because of this it was felt that further outcrossing with Reds was needed, with resultant litters being submitted for inspection. It was felt that the time had not come for the re-allocation of Green Stars because the numbers were not high enough.

In his report to the 1982 AGM, Mr. Nash states that a meeting had been held, under the chairmanship of Mr. Plunkett, Chairman of IKC, with the IRS Club and the IR/WS Club. That meeting agreed that two IR/WS Club members could sit in at our club committee meetings when matters relating to Red and Whites were on the Agenda.

In the same report Mr. Nash remarked that the new Red and White Club seemed to be concentrating on show dogs and not doing much work on trials. This was a pity, considering that a large number of red dogs used in outcrossing came from field trial stock.

A meeting was held around mid 1982 between representatives of the Irish Red Setter Club and of the Irish Red and White Setter Club. Unfortunately, the actual date of the meeting was not recorded on the record of the meeting. Mrs. Anne Gormley and Mr. Terry O’Leary represented the IR/WSC and Messers J.Nash, R.Stakelum, T.Wall and R.O’Dwyer, in an observatory capacity, represented the IRSC.

Mrs. Gormley told the meeting it was her understanding that the future development committee for red and white setters was to include 2 reps from the R/WSC and 3 from the IRSC. She said that this had been agreed at a meeting in the IKC. Mr. Nash said that in 1974 the IRSC had formed a committee to oversee the revival and development of the Red and White breed. He stated that he had no mandate to disband that committee, nor did he think it appropriate to do so. He also pointed out that he thought that there was a very rich source of experience and expertise around the table to ensure a good future for the red and white breed.

It was suggested that the Red and White Club should elect a Breeding Committee. Its brief would include listing all the stock they would recommend breeding from. Then if members wished to breed their own dogs with the chosen stock they apply to the Breeding Committee and name the mate they wish to use. If the committee did not approve of the proposed mating it would offer advice on what it thought would be a suitable choice.

On 10^th November 1982 an Irish Red Setter Club committee discussed a letter received from the Irish Kennel Club. The letter stated that because of reciprocal arrangements between it and the Kennel Club in England, it was not possible to insist on inspecting Red and White pups applying for registration in U.K. The letter suggested a meeting of interested parties on 17^th of November. The committee delegated Messers Nash, Keenan, Stakelum and O’Dwyer to attend.

At a meeting in January 1983 Mr. Ray O’Dwyer gave a report of the November 17 meeting in Dublin.

He said that there seemed to be little desire in the IKC for our club’s continued participation in monitoring the revival of the Irish Red and White Setter breed. Mr. O’Dwyer also reported that the members from the Red and White club wished very strongly to go it alone.

Mr. Jack Nash said that he felt that the IKC had not tried to negotiate arrangements with the UK Kennel Club whereby we could continue the inspection process. Accordingly, there was a unanimous decision to end our involvement in the revival programme and to inform the IKC and also publish our decision in the sporting papers.

I am pleased to note that your Club has progressed very well since the early 1980s. I have competed against and judged some very good Red and Whites during the 1980s and 1990s. I wish, on behalf of the IRSC and on my own behalf, every success to your Club in the future.

Owen Lane, honorary secretary, Irish Red Setter Club.